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Post by Car on Jun 8, 2005 1:03:49 GMT -5
The other day i was discussing with a friend about religion, she was saying that without religion, the actual world would be a mess, you know, no ethics, no rules, no one respecting each others (more that nowdays), etc.
But i was thinking that maybe without religion, we would have evolve a lot more faster as humankind, 'cos we would have realized that we have to respect the others, to prevail, i think that a lot nations would have no prejudices about others.
I mean check right now (and in the past) how many countries are racists and fighting each other or how many crimes have done just because different believes, different religions, my conclusion is that if the religion would never existed i think right now we would be a lot more pacifist humankid, more evolved.
But for the other side, she said that a lot more people would have find peace, religion for some people is a reason to live, a reason to love, etc.
What do you think? How the world would be right now if the religion would never existed?
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Post by Chastity on Jun 8, 2005 1:23:12 GMT -5
I think the whole thing about not having religion is pure crap. I once thought the exact same way as your friend.
I think it's a matter of self control and your own conscience. Some people have a very good sense of it and some people obviously don't. It all boils down to faith in yourself really, no matter what religion (or lack of) you are.
I can't put this in words but when someone believes in a certain type of religion, they believe their behaviour is a result of their beliefs. Yes it is, but it's mostly yourself. It's your motivation. It's like the placebo effect.
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Post by karro on Jun 8, 2005 21:03:16 GMT -5
I totally agree with you Carlos and Chast. That is why I have no religion. Religion make people sick and crazy and they serve God as an excuse to make horrible crimes. I do believe in alot of things, God the first so you can believe without any religion. Religion are dogmas that enslave you and it restrains you to certain believes. I believe in a free world. With religions you aren't. The best exemple of where the religions can lead you is the Koran. I think this link could be interesting to read for you. The text is very long, so Ill resume the most shocking parts: "There are more than 100 verses in the Qur'an (Koran) advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. There are exactly 123 verses in the Qur'an about killing and fighting."-I have a friend who read the entire Koran. When I told him that I wanted to read it he said the quote about and that discouraged me to try it. Exemple of mathematic falacies in Koran:"It just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property."The link: www.islamlies.com/ |
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Post by MrClean on Jun 8, 2005 22:56:55 GMT -5
I hate religion  "religion never gave people better life, only work on his rule, and use people, etnies and races to make money for his own. |
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Post by Car on Jun 9, 2005 1:15:44 GMT -5
I believe there's a God, a Creator.
I think, I've read Karro saying that everyone of us are gods and i agree with that, i think that all about god and devil characters (the good and evil) is just like a metaphor, it's more like a spiritual thing inside of us, our free will to behave and believe.
*An small twist! (but related after all)
What do you think about abortion/euthanasia?
"Kill or not to Sin?" that's the dilema!
Most of religions calls it a sin, 'cos it's a crime, but aren't some special cases where this believe should be moved aside? What do you think?
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Post by fUx0r on Jun 10, 2005 3:34:21 GMT -5
oh, god... where do i begin with this. as many of you veteran members might now, i'm big on religion and politics. i'll try to keep this post as pithy as possible.
i'm sort of on the fence when it comes to this topic. i believe that most people are good and moral by nature but are ultimately victims of circumstance. now, i don't know if religion necessarily gave birth to ethics and morals, thus i don't know if society owes them that. but there are other things that society does owe to religious institutions. modern day farming techniques were perfected by franciscan monks, algebra and the preservation of greek mathematics and philosophy can be attributed to islam and arabic culture, western art (as most western religious institutions were really some of the great patrons of art), the modern calender, and so on.
i know religion has never been quick to embrace social changes, but religion is also an ever-evolving thing. and like most things in the world, it's not for everyone. that's why i don't believe in the universality of religion.
what most people don't take into consideration is that religion is run by humans and humans are flawed by nature. science, which we all try and believe exists to better our own existence, like religion has also been used to further individual agendas. i believe that the core of all religions is good, but sadly it is human manifestation and interpretation which ruins that central core. but again, that can be said about science as well.
but anyways, it's late and i think i'm rambling. so i'll leave the rest for another day.
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ius
Full Member
Man or mouse!?
Posts: 151
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Post by ius on Jun 10, 2005 3:45:50 GMT -5
Soooo....What can I say... Im from Russia and I know that a lot of countries in the world don't like Russia... Not because of religion... I think it is because Russia have power... And like in a song afhgan :The weakest one is always wrong... same is in our life....Russia thinks so. I don't like Russian politics... I don't want war or something else like this.. Let's be in peace and don't mind about anything bad... Cool topic Car!  ;D  |
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Post by fUx0r on Jun 10, 2005 12:19:52 GMT -5
Most of religions calls it a sin, 'cos it's a crime, but aren't some special cases where this believe should be moved aside? What do you think? you know, i consider myself to be a religious person, but i cultivate my religiosity on the inside. i don't go around wearing it on my sleeve. but anyways, i don't believe it's a sin. human ingenuity, i believe, is a gift from god, so why should we feel restrained because some people call it a sin? that's just me, though. |
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Post by Chastity on Jun 10, 2005 12:38:21 GMT -5
As for my current status, I am agnostic. I don't think atheism would fly with me very well. I believe that God exists but I also believe in other higher powers to the point where I cannot choose which one is right, which one is wrong or if all of them are right or wrong.
I have seen many fucked up Atheists who just blow their lives away on self destruction and I have seen many fucked up Catholics who will turn their noses up at certain things, yet be the biggest hypocrites.
HOWEVER, I have also seen incredibly intelligent Atheists who live their lives in an ideal manner and I have seen enlightened Catholics who live their lives realistically.
That's why I completely emphasize on the power and strength of oneself. You should never completely lose yourself in a belief. Your life should not be run by a belief but you must simply live in conjunction to the belief. Sorry if I am not making sense.
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Post by fUx0r on Jun 10, 2005 14:01:54 GMT -5
well, belief is all we have in this world, whether it be belief in a higher authority or belief in one's self. i agree with you, chas, though that we hold the power to do and be how ever we want. and i also agree that there are both good and bad in every group in society, whether it be spiritual or secular.
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Post by Car on Jun 13, 2005 12:31:21 GMT -5
Your opinions are very interesting, what i mind is about how the world is killing each other due differences of religions, "if you're not in my side, im gonna hate you" and so on...
Another thing i've seen, is about people who "follows" a religion, but they're not plenty devoted to it, like if they change some disagree points to their own covenience and it's like they're lying to themselves.
I agree with your opinions about that our true religion is the one we cultivate inside
For the other hand, religion for a lot of people means hope, hope to live in the eternity, wich leads to my next question: Where do you think we're going after we die?
Is there a heaven? A hell? Another dimension?
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Post by karro on Jun 13, 2005 16:04:57 GMT -5
I love your questions, Car. It's very nice to have someone like you interested in those matters.
To go in order, I'm not pro-abortion/euthanasia but I don't judge people who does. It's a personal choice. One of my best friend is pregnant and we both had dreams about her future kid. I can say that I also feel his presence when I go at her place. That is why I would never abort myself. I believe the soul of the future children is around the mother even before she infants.
Euthanasia is kind of suicide so that is why I'm not pro. But at the same time, I don't want people to suffer and be maintain alive for years as in a coma. So I guess our medicine is way far now and it maybe the problem of wanting everyone to stay alive and not let the nature do. Human wants to control everything but sometime you just need to go with the flow. Did you ever noticed that when you struggle the less for something its what is happening the fastest? And so that its the thing your the most happy about? When you struggle so hard for something and you finally got it, did you ever noticed you lose interests in that pretty fast? Just let it be.
I do believe in reincarnation. I don't really believe in a hell/heaven. Everything is a matter of hierarchy on the other side. You have the inferiors levels and the upper levels, the upest being God's floor. But anyhow, it's the manifestted God that we see or feel here and above/below. There is a part that we can't know called the infinite light. And for sure there is other dimension, depending on some beliefs. I can't really tell how many. I heard from some there are 7 and others there are 12...We can't never be so sure. But we are in the thrird dimension here, the 4th dimension is the time/space. The 5th dimension is the one where we go when have dreams or astral travels. The inferiors entities can't go upper than the 5th. The 6th is reserved for our conscience, the part of us that is God and relate us to him and the 7th is His dimension. I could go on further, depending of what is questioned. Even if I don't have any religions. My belives are similars to the Gnostics, not Agnostic. I received some of their teachings.
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Acetroubleshooter
New Member
if you're dumb enough to vote, you're dumb enough to believe him
Posts: 18
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Post by Acetroubleshooter on Jun 13, 2005 16:11:55 GMT -5
my opinion is that religion is one of the 3 parts of war together with power and money
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Post by fUx0r on Jun 13, 2005 21:22:17 GMT -5
i'm pro-abortion, pro-assisted suicide... i'm for anything that gets the freeways running faster. haha, but i am pro those things. in the case of abortion, it's a woman's choice whether or not she wishes to terminate a pregnancy, and no one or any single body of government should legislate what a woman can and cannot do to her body. now i'm sure even those who are pro-abortion can agree to a certain level of emotional scaring (as well as physical), but i don't think anyone else should be hung up about "what could have been their best friend" or crap like that. my problem with those people is that they don't live in the present, but rather in a deluded reality of "what was" and "what could have been". no offense to you karro, but it's like having a deaf person feeling regret for never knowing the joys of music if they've never experienced it. same with a person.
as for euthanasia, hey, why stay in a world where all you can do is sit there and suffer? i don't believe that god holds those responsible who take that way out. i would imagine (because i don't pretend to understand what god thinks) that god would rather us rest in peace then suffer in a state of illness and pain.
as for heaven and hell, i believe it is whatever you make of it. it's just like a shirt: what fits you might not fit me, so why should heaven and hell be a one-size-fits-all situation?
now, i have no problem with religion. i myself consider myself to be a religious person, maybe not in the context of what others would deem "religious", but i would think i am. what upsets me about religious demagogues is that they sometimes cloak their personal agendas with religion.
i agree that religion is a contributing factor behind certain tensions between different groups, but there are also financial, social, and political factors that lead to just as much conflict. i think religion is just always number one on the list because that puts into play some of people's most personal and deeply held convictionts. but hey, i've said enough about the matter for one day.
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Post by karro on Jun 14, 2005 1:57:22 GMT -5
Pain makes you grow. It makes you discover the light better. How you can know the light if you never experienced the dark? It makes you appreciate the life after in a better way. I know, it's that impossible among of pain (low back injury) that saved my life. That made me become a better person. People who knows me from before said that I changed so much that I'm not the same person anymore. I always be a good person but soemtime you need a trial to understand something. Everything happen for a reason and you needed this suffering. But I know it's something diffucult to understand if you never passed through. I know before I couldnt conceive that God makes us suffer, and I was revolted and arguing over it. Now I just understand why. But truth is different for everyone. Your truth is what you need at the moment. It will change later.
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